relick
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Post by relick on Jul 1, 2015 13:28:23 GMT
People seem to have fairly different views regarding this, so I thought it might be worth starting a discussion. For the sake of consistency, this hypothetical new player is someone who has just discovered touhou, likes video games but has little experience with shmups. They aren't sure where to start, and have asked you for something, being the pro touhou player that you are.
If it was me, I'd start them with EoSD (because it's the first in the series), and get them to try out normal mode for a while. If they don't seem to be making any progress, then it might be worth suggesting they play easy for a while, but I wouldn't push for them to play any of the other games, nor would I tell them whether to use default lives or 5 or which shot type to use. The main reasoning for this is that I think each player likes to do different things, and EoSD being the first in the series it is chronologically a good starting place since it has simple mechanics (that are carried throughout all the games) as well as not being a particularly difficult game. What is important, though, is that they work out what they like doing, how they want to play, figure out the shot types themselves etc. And then go on to choose which games they want to play next on their own terms rather than the terms of the person recommending.
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Glaceon Mage
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Post by Glaceon Mage on Jul 1, 2015 13:32:14 GMT
IN Easy... because it's, well, easy.
Start from the bottom, work your way up, I say.
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nameschonvergeben
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Post by nameschonvergeben on Jul 1, 2015 14:00:47 GMT
PCB or IN normal mode because they're relatively basic to play for survival and EoSD has no visible hitbox which makes it hard as a first game. (I'm probably kinda biased towards old engine) I would recommend Normal instead of easy because ... well easy is too easy, normal teaches the basics way better (and if you're so hungry for gratification that you need to play easy, the games probably aren't for you anyway :V)
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nameschonvergeben
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Post by nameschonvergeben on Jul 1, 2015 14:15:20 GMT
Playing the games in order accomplishes nothing, I think starting with the simplest ones is best. IN is a really good first game because there are no gimmicks related to resources and unlike in EoSD the hitbox is visible. PCB and MoF are also good starting games; PCB was my first game. As for difficulty, there's no reason to play easy once you're used to the controls. Easy is by no means a prerequisite for normal, so skipping it altogether might be a better plan. I would also recommend any beginner to use a homing shot (or Yuyuko's spread in IN).
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nameschonvergeben
Posts: 180
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Post by nameschonvergeben on Jul 1, 2015 14:19:59 GMT
I would only apply the part about the homing shot to the games that have a good homing -> IN(Border Team), PCB(Sakuya A) and DDC(Reimu A and Sakuya A) if I'm not missing one
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relick
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Post by relick on Jul 1, 2015 14:26:40 GMT
Playing the games in order accomplishes nothing, I think starting with the simplest ones is best. IN is a really good first game because there are no gimmicks related to resources and unlike in EoSD the hitbox is visible. PCB and MoF are also good starting games; PCB was my first game. As for difficulty, there's no reason to play easy once you're used to the controls. Easy is by no means a prerequisite for normal, so skipping it altogether might be a better plan. I would also recommend any beginner to use a homing shot (or Yuyuko's spread in IN). I wouldn't suggest playing them in order, but EoSD I feel is the simplest. For the hitbox concern... give them the hitbox patch? I agree PCB and MoF are also good starting games. I would likely have not continued to play Touhou if I started with IN, and I'm glad no-one was around to recommend it to me. It's easy, yes, but I find a lot of that is due to how many resources you get given; especially if you then give yourself more lives than default. Blasting through IN with loads of resources and large deathbomb windows is great if you just want the easy gratification, but the same can't be said for any of the other games in the series, or difficulties higher than normal in IN, so it's quite unrepresentative of the rest of the games. Homing shot/Yuyuko's spread is only good up to a certain point, and also depends on the game e.g. the homing shot in EoSD is fairly bad for beginners.
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ZM
Kochiyaist
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Post by ZM on Jul 1, 2015 14:34:19 GMT
I would only apply the part about the homing shot to the games that have a good homing -> IN(Border Team), PCB(Sakuya A) and DDC(Reimu A and Sakuya A) if I'm not missing one MoF!ReimuA is another good homing one.
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Prinny
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Post by Prinny on Jul 1, 2015 14:40:14 GMT
I would probably recommend working on PCB for newer players. Probably some bias here since this was where I started at. PCB is pretty basic for survival and the cherry system gives the player a choice between risk and reward during a border. The game is also pretty generous with resources.
As far as difficulty is concern, I would suggest trying normal before you decide to go easy. I'll at least admit that I don't touch easy that often, but I don't think easy would provide enough for a newer player to work with compared to normal(I can only go by IN and LLS easy from what I can remember. Memory too hazy for PCB easy and I can't say much for the other games). Also, EoSD and LLS won't let you challenge stage 6 if you play on easy so it could feel like an incomplete experience with those games (I believe it was EoSD and LLS).
I guess another point I'll add even though it wasn't ask is to play with default resources even if the game gives you the option to play with more resources. More of a personal thing since I don't like seeing the player penalty message at the end of a stage and I remember I felt like I was playing worse with the added resources back when I was learning PCB lunatic. I don't think relying on those extra lives will help someone learn the game compared to working with the default amount of resources but that is just my opinion.
I guess my alternative suggestion would be IN. IN does provide spell practice so that helps out when it comes to learning specific patterns. I'm kind of wondering if IN's deathbomb window is a good thing. It might be good if it motivates the player to not rely on it and learn when to bomb due to how you lose both time and 2 bombs from deathbombing (excluding the scenario of a normal bomb being used if you get hit).
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nameschonvergeben
Posts: 180
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Post by nameschonvergeben on Jul 1, 2015 14:51:40 GMT
I would only apply the part about the homing shot to the games that have a good homing -> IN(Border Team), PCB(Sakuya A) and DDC(Reimu A and Sakuya A) if I'm not missing one MoF!ReimuA is another good homing one. Afaik she makes Vowg a pain though
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ZM
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Post by ZM on Jul 1, 2015 15:46:35 GMT
MoF!ReimuA is another good homing one. Afaik she makes Vowg a pain though Indeed she would, but I thight we were referring to homing shots we'd recommend newbies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 15:52:28 GMT
IN Easy... because it's, well, easy. Start from the bottom, work your way up, I say. This and also IN is a great game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 16:12:32 GMT
My suggested starting order is (all games on Easy): IN -> DDC -> TD -> LLS -> MoFThen one can play whatever. LLS may be skipped by some who are too lazy to set up a PC-98 emulator, however. I would suggest being cautious with PCB for newbies despite its generosity because it's hardly any easier than Normal pattern-wise, making that a surprisingly daunting Easy mode. Also ignore those who tell you to play Normal 3 lives from the get-go. Start at the bottom then work your way up - but feel free to raise difficulty and/or lower starting lives if you're not feeling challenged. PoFV is useful at any time if you want to improve your reactive dodging skills. In regards to skipping difficulties and not messing with resources:
Y'all seem to forget fun should come first when playing a game, not one's improvement. Let them play Easy 5/6/7 lives if they want - this'll let them play longer, practice more and make them feel more at home with the game. You know, fun from achieving might not come at first, since they may even feel intimidated, so let's not make things worse for them, okay?
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nameschonvergeben
Posts: 180
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Post by nameschonvergeben on Jul 1, 2015 18:25:22 GMT
Y'all seem to forget fun should come first when playing a game, not one's improvement. Let them play Easy 5/6/7 lives if they want - this'll let them play longer, practice more and make them feel more at home with the game. You know, fun from achieving might not come at first, since they may even feel intimidated, so let's not make things worse for them, okay? You seem to forget that some people enjoy to actually play the game instead of getting easy gratification. No, playing easy does not make people play longer or practice more.
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
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Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Jul 1, 2015 18:29:35 GMT
I personally do believe that the higher you play the better, to start of with atleast. Of course for people which want to get stuff done when they start I'd recommend normal mode, it indeed does teach the basics (moving, focus usage, bombing when needed, learning patterns, how the PoC works and whatnot actually.) While at the start being challenging, it does help to understand the basics which honestly is all you'll really need at the start. Easy mode is fine if you really don't get anywhere in normal which kind of is highly unlikely, even if you're just starting.
Personally I think that IN > MoF > EoSD > MS > TD is a good way to do it, IN is kind of easier which makes it simpler to get into, MoF learns stuff like streaming for a bit; resource management. EoSD learns that there's a solution for almost everything I guess, as well as that randomness can still be dodgeable; is probably good for reactive dodging. MS Kind of gives the feeling of the older games as well as it learns you that the PoC isn't a point you always get autocollect at in every shmup.
That's atleast how I see most things as, the reason why I recommend starting of high is because surely, you won't 1cc it right away or get a thing done in it per se in a short amount of time, but you're pretty much set to develop yourself into it until you can survive it consistently enough to get a 1cc, basically, you'll just develop faster because you aim higher; it challenges you to develop for that. I wouldn't recommend someone to start of at lunatic but I can very well imagine that some people would be capable of growing into that almost right away. normal is the mode I'd recommend for everyone to start out in, those who think they could add more spice probably should pick hard.
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MauserZGK
娜兹琳的男朋友
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Post by MauserZGK on Jul 1, 2015 18:30:08 GMT
Its 2015. Anyone who doesn't start out any game at the highest difficulty is truly backwards
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LNN Keeper
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Post by LNN Keeper on Jul 1, 2015 18:36:24 GMT
I started my Touhou career trying to beat ran. It took a long 7 months of on and off playing to do so, but it was so blissful when I finally got it.
I don't have a recommendation for starting per se. Just do whatever you feel like I guess. But don't be afraid to jump difficulties.
For the longest time I was only doing normal mode and extra mode and was afraid of Hard mode and above. I thought I would never be able to handle something like that until a friend of mine by the name of Gamercal suggested I experiment with hard mode. Since then, I had jumped to Hard mode, then Lunatic mode, and then LNB, and now I'm reaching levels of LNN/N and a bit of scoring.
One of my favorite things to have done was to try and beat all the games at the level I was at. Before I moved to Lunatic I cleared all games on hard. Then once I got to Lunatic I cleared all games on Lunatic. Then I went for all games perfect Extra and all games LNB.
But you don't have to play all games. If you want to specialize in a few that's fine too.
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relick
Welcome to Eientei!
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Post by relick on Jul 1, 2015 18:43:02 GMT
For the longest time I was only doing normal mode and extra mode and was afraid of Hard mode and above. I thought I would never be able to handle something like that until a friend of mine by the name of Gamercal suggested I experiment with hard mode. Since then, I had jumped to Hard mode, then Lunatic mode, and then LNB, and now I'm reaching levels of LNN/N and a bit of scoring. Yeah I was kinda like this with easy mode, going to normal mode was the biggest jump and I needed to be pushed for it. Extra, Hard (and now Lunatic) weren't as much of a jump to me, and it was much easier for me to push onto them. I also agree that it is fun (and beneficial to skill) to clear all the games on one level of difficulty before moving up, although I haven't had the motivation to bother with doing that on Hard yet xD. DDC Lunatic comes first!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 18:47:03 GMT
Counterpoint: people who fail Easy modes are more common than you may think. Dear Leader is one of them. Sure, she only like, plays IN once every few months, but that counts, doesn't it? My point is, you guys may be overestimating the skill of a new player. Streaming, bombing or path-reading may not come as naturally for them as it does for us. My other point is that Easy and 5/6/7 lives is not as much of a cakewalk as it is for us. Try to place yourself on the shoes of the other player, who may not be as skilled - or as patient - as we are, and may feel discouraged by pushing themselves too much from the get-go. The ones that would do something of that extent and survive all 7 months without giving up are a strict minority.
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Glaceon Mage
Resident Shotacon
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Post by Glaceon Mage on Jul 1, 2015 18:49:12 GMT
I can safely say that when I fist started playing Touhou, I could barely get past Keine in IN Easy while continuing.
And I can easily say that IN Easy was just the first step getting to where I am now, ie knowing almost everything about IN Extra and 1cc'ing IN Hard. So yeah.
IN Easy is a nice way to ease into Touhou
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
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Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Jul 1, 2015 18:52:25 GMT
Counterpoint: people who fail Easy modes are more common than you may think. Dear Leader is one of them. Sure, she only like, plays IN once every few months, but that counts, doesn't it? My point is, you guys may be overestimating the skill of a new player. Streaming, bombing or path-reading may not come as naturally for them as it does for us. My other point is that Easy and 5/6/7 lives is not as much of a cakewalk as it is for us. Try to place yourself on the shoes of the other player, who may not be as skilled - or as patient - as we are, and may feel discouraged by pushing themselves too much from the get-go. The ones that would do something of that extent and survive all 7 months without giving up are a strict minority. You're forgetting one point, we're talking about our experiences; how we think it usually works. We all were new at some point; everyone has a different experience. We aren't saying 'you per se should' but it's how we think it can help, if you didn't have this experience then okay, that can differ. But I hope you atleast can understand we all have different experiences; reasons for having them. None is per se 'right' or 'wrong'.
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