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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 22:23:21 GMT
I'd say that they were new to Gensokyo by the Scarlet Mist incident, so perhaps a few months.
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463 
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 22:27:37 GMT
According to the composed timeline, Embodiment of Scarlet Devil takes place in the summer of 2003 (Season 118, the Year of Moon, Autumn, and Wood), which is also when the Vampire Incident, the incident involving various vampires infiltrating Gensokyo and terrorizing the population, first occurred. Neither Reimu nor Marisa appear to have familiarity with the characters, based on their numerous interactions.
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Aki
Illusionist Crown
Posts: 1,910
夢幻の冠帯
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Post by Aki on Aug 2, 2015 23:51:33 GMT
Question: What exactly is the relationship between Kanako and Suwako? I haven't read into it too much, but I can't see how Kanako stole Suwako's shrine and they ended up being friends... I also assume Sanae worships and proselytes both of them...? I always thought Suwako was originally furious about her shrine getting taken over and would try to take it back. Then she would realize just how much she stood to benefit from Kanako's salesmanship, and so eventually befriended her. Also yes, Sanae does worship both of them, she's only a descendant of Suwako though. |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 3, 2015 0:27:34 GMT
They additionally treat the acquisition of faith as essentially a business, even utilizing Blue Ocean Strategies to their advantage.
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Carrot
Posts: 84
Favorite Game: Shoot the BulletFavorite Character: Tewi Inaba
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Post by Carrot on Aug 3, 2015 3:01:30 GMT
Hmm, how curious. The Touhou universe sure is a strange yet logical one.
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Aki
Illusionist Crown
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夢幻の冠帯
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Post by Aki on Aug 3, 2015 3:26:09 GMT
It's just common sense not included.
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ZM
Kochiyaist
Posts: 7,266
Arahitogami~
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Post by ZM on Aug 3, 2015 4:44:18 GMT
Question: What exactly is the relationship between Kanako and Suwako? I haven't read into it too much, but I can't see how Kanako stole Suwako's shrine and they ended up being friends... I also assume Sanae worships and proselytes both of them...? Suwako was the original owner of the Moriya Shrine. Duh, we all know that. Kanako then decided to waltz in uninvited, and the two got into a brutal war over who would rule the shrine (I feel that Suwako's ninth spell card, Suwa War ~ Native Myth vs. Central Myth, makes for a great illustration of the intensity of their battle.). Kanako eventually won and took over the shrine, leaving a bitter Suwako. But without Kanako taking over, Suwako would've vanished, as the declining faith in her increased rapidly ever since Kanako took over. So at that moment, they became good friends, with Suwako being like, "Meh, I'll let her do all the busy work!" Sanae worships them both, as her frog and snake hair ornaments are symbols of her faith in both goddesses. She's Suwako's direct descendent, yes. |
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 3, 2015 11:43:19 GMT
Question: What exactly is the relationship between Kanako and Suwako? I haven't read into it too much, but I can't see how Kanako stole Suwako's shrine and they ended up being friends... I also assume Sanae worships and proselytes both of them...? Suwako was the original owner of the Moriya Shrine. Duh, we all know that. Kanako then decided to waltz in uninvited, and the two got into a brutal war over who would rule the shrine (I feel that Suwako's ninth spell card, Suwa War ~ Native Myth vs. Central Myth, makes for a great illustration of the intensity of their battle.). Kanako eventually won and took over the shrine, leaving a bitter Suwako. But without Kanako taking over, Suwako would've vanished, as the declining faith in her increased rapidly ever since Kanako took over. So at that moment, they became good friends, with Suwako being like, "Meh, I'll let her do all the busy work!" Sanae worships them both, as her frog and snake hair ornaments are symbols of her faith in both goddesses. She's Suwako's direct descendent, yes. Actually, Suwako's ninth spellcard is a reference: "Great Suwa War At those times, Suwako Moriya's leading edge was iron weapons, but Kanako was able to rust the entire arsenal by holding out a thin vine, and as a result they surrendered. Iron was imported into Japan at around 300 CE, however the usage of iron itself (including places outside Japan) has been recorded previously, and so determining the era of this is difficult In the "Treatise on Geography" (地理志) in the Book of Han, it is said that in the later Han dynasty it was divided into a hundred or more countries, and if it is the case that "the expansion of the Yamato State = the invasion of Kanako and other Yamato gods," then it would have occurred in the first few centuries CE. Furthermore, by research in recent years, as a united country the Yamato State came into existence in the latter half of the third century, and it has been considered that in half of the fourth century, it expanded its territory into the Kōshin'etsu and Tōhoku regions. In the genealogy of the Moriya family, the Moriya god was the first generation, the adoption of Mononobe no Moriya's child was the 26th generation, and is currently in the 78th generation. However, concerning Touhou, it is not Moriya, but Kochiya. Basing it on the legend passed down the Moriya family, one can discern the Great Suwa War (the fight between the Moriya god and Takeminakata) to be around 1500-1600 years ago." Kanako kind of took over the shrine in a period of invasions. |
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ZM
Kochiyaist
Posts: 7,266
Arahitogami~
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Post by ZM on Aug 3, 2015 12:00:35 GMT
Suwako was the original owner of the Moriya Shrine. Duh, we all know that. Kanako then decided to waltz in uninvited, and the two got into a brutal war over who would rule the shrine (I feel that Suwako's ninth spell card, Suwa War ~ Native Myth vs. Central Myth, makes for a great illustration of the intensity of their battle.). Kanako eventually won and took over the shrine, leaving a bitter Suwako. But without Kanako taking over, Suwako would've vanished, as the declining faith in her increased rapidly ever since Kanako took over. So at that moment, they became good friends, with Suwako being like, "Meh, I'll let her do all the busy work!" Sanae worships them both, as her frog and snake hair ornaments are symbols of her faith in both goddesses. She's Suwako's direct descendent, yes. Actually, Suwako's ninth spellcard is a reference: "Great Suwa War At those times, Suwako Moriya's leading edge was iron weapons, but Kanako was able to rust the entire arsenal by holding out a thin vine, and as a result they surrendered. Iron was imported into Japan at around 300 CE, however the usage of iron itself (including places outside Japan) has been recorded previously, and so determining the era of this is difficult In the "Treatise on Geography" (地理志) in the Book of Han, it is said that in the later Han dynasty it was divided into a hundred or more countries, and if it is the case that "the expansion of the Yamato State = the invasion of Kanako and other Yamato gods," then it would have occurred in the first few centuries CE. Furthermore, by research in recent years, as a united country the Yamato State came into existence in the latter half of the third century, and it has been considered that in half of the fourth century, it expanded its territory into the Kōshin'etsu and Tōhoku regions. In the genealogy of the Moriya family, the Moriya god was the first generation, the adoption of Mononobe no Moriya's child was the 26th generation, and is currently in the 78th generation. However, concerning Touhou, it is not Moriya, but Kochiya. Basing it on the legend passed down the Moriya family, one can discern the Great Suwa War (the fight between the Moriya god and Takeminakata) to be around 1500-1600 years ago." Kanako kind of took over the shrine in a period of invasions. Aha. Thanks for the info. |
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Aki
Illusionist Crown
Posts: 1,910
夢幻の冠帯
Favorite Game: The Embodiment of Scarlet DevilFavorite Character: Remilia ScarletCustom Title: Illusionist CrownMini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"ffffff"}Mini Profile Text Color: 000000Mini-Profile Name Color: ff0000
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Post by Aki on Aug 3, 2015 12:02:41 GMT
Suwako was the original owner of the Moriya Shrine. Duh, we all know that. Kanako then decided to waltz in uninvited, and the two got into a brutal war over who would rule the shrine (I feel that Suwako's ninth spell card, Suwa War ~ Native Myth vs. Central Myth, makes for a great illustration of the intensity of their battle.). Kanako eventually won and took over the shrine, leaving a bitter Suwako. But without Kanako taking over, Suwako would've vanished, as the declining faith in her increased rapidly ever since Kanako took over. So at that moment, they became good friends, with Suwako being like, "Meh, I'll let her do all the busy work!" Sanae worships them both, as her frog and snake hair ornaments are symbols of her faith in both goddesses. She's Suwako's direct descendent, yes. Actually, Suwako's ninth spellcard is a reference: "Great Suwa War At those times, Suwako Moriya's leading edge was iron weapons, but Kanako was able to rust the entire arsenal by holding out a thin vine, and as a result they surrendered. Iron was imported into Japan at around 300 CE, however the usage of iron itself (including places outside Japan) has been recorded previously, and so determining the era of this is difficult In the "Treatise on Geography" (地理志) in the Book of Han, it is said that in the later Han dynasty it was divided into a hundred or more countries, and if it is the case that "the expansion of the Yamato State = the invasion of Kanako and other Yamato gods," then it would have occurred in the first few centuries CE. Furthermore, by research in recent years, as a united country the Yamato State came into existence in the latter half of the third century, and it has been considered that in half of the fourth century, it expanded its territory into the Kōshin'etsu and Tōhoku regions. In the genealogy of the Moriya family, the Moriya god was the first generation, the adoption of Mononobe no Moriya's child was the 26th generation, and is currently in the 78th generation. However, concerning Touhou, it is not Moriya, but Kochiya. Basing it on the legend passed down the Moriya family, one can discern the Great Suwa War (the fight between the Moriya god and Takeminakata) to be around 1500-1600 years ago." Kanako kind of took over the shrine in a period of invasions. I think this is very strange since Japanese were not known for their abilities with blade weapons. It was with bows and spears that required minimal iron, and would definitely still be useable with rusted tips unless they were battling knights for some reason (which they were not). Sooo I didn't bother applying historical sources to the great suwa war. |
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
Posts: 416
Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 3, 2015 12:03:36 GMT
Actually, Suwako's ninth spellcard is a reference: "Great Suwa War At those times, Suwako Moriya's leading edge was iron weapons, but Kanako was able to rust the entire arsenal by holding out a thin vine, and as a result they surrendered. Iron was imported into Japan at around 300 CE, however the usage of iron itself (including places outside Japan) has been recorded previously, and so determining the era of this is difficult In the "Treatise on Geography" (地理志) in the Book of Han, it is said that in the later Han dynasty it was divided into a hundred or more countries, and if it is the case that "the expansion of the Yamato State = the invasion of Kanako and other Yamato gods," then it would have occurred in the first few centuries CE. Furthermore, by research in recent years, as a united country the Yamato State came into existence in the latter half of the third century, and it has been considered that in half of the fourth century, it expanded its territory into the Kōshin'etsu and Tōhoku regions. In the genealogy of the Moriya family, the Moriya god was the first generation, the adoption of Mononobe no Moriya's child was the 26th generation, and is currently in the 78th generation. However, concerning Touhou, it is not Moriya, but Kochiya. Basing it on the legend passed down the Moriya family, one can discern the Great Suwa War (the fight between the Moriya god and Takeminakata) to be around 1500-1600 years ago." Kanako kind of took over the shrine in a period of invasions. I think this is very strange since Japanese were not known for their abilities with blade weapons. It was with bows and spears that required minimal iron, and would definitely still be useable with rusted tips unless they were battling knights for some reason (which they were not). Sooo I didn't bother applying historical sources to the great suwa war. It's literally on the wiki; I'm pretty sure most iron was shipped anyways, I don't know how they made the weapons but seemingly they did. |
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Aki
Illusionist Crown
Posts: 1,910
夢幻の冠帯
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Post by Aki on Aug 3, 2015 12:08:37 GMT
I think this is very strange since Japanese were not known for their abilities with blade weapons. It was with bows and spears that required minimal iron, and would definitely still be useable with rusted tips unless they were battling knights for some reason (which they were not). Sooo I didn't bother applying historical sources to the great suwa war. It's literally on the wiki; I'm pretty sure most iron was shipped anyways, I don't know how they made the weapons but seemingly they did. Japan was pretty removed for the rest of the world in terms of history, iirc. Don't think they had much iron trade, the fact comes out in their weapons. (Such as Katanas being made of pattern welded steel despite the European swords at that same time period already being made of better purer steels.) |
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
Posts: 416
Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 3, 2015 12:10:38 GMT
It's literally on the wiki; I'm pretty sure most iron was shipped anyways, I don't know how they made the weapons but seemingly they did. Japan was pretty removed for the rest of the world in terms of history, iirc. Don't think they had much iron trade, the fact comes out in their weapons. (Such as Katanas being made of pattern welded steel despite the European swords at that same time period already being made of better purer steels.) You're forgetting that the Netherlands was allowed to trade with the Japanese in exchange for the Dutch to well... Scare all the other countries away from the Japanese seas, also Japan had some trade with China too. Both countries had iron during that time so iron was pretty much available for trade. |
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Aki
Illusionist Crown
Posts: 1,910
夢幻の冠帯
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Post by Aki on Aug 3, 2015 12:13:32 GMT
Japan was pretty removed for the rest of the world in terms of history, iirc. Don't think they had much iron trade, the fact comes out in their weapons. (Such as Katanas being made of pattern welded steel despite the European swords at that same time period already being made of better purer steels.) You're forgetting that the Netherlands was allowed to trade with the Japanese in exchange for the Dutch to well... Scare all the other countries away from the Japanese seas, also Japan had some trade with China too. Both countries had iron during that time so iron was pretty much available for trade. By the time trade opened, they would have stopped using iron and would have moved onto steel, wouldn't they? (Also its strange how Suwako didn't have any bronze to arm her followers with.) I'm getting my years mixed up. |
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
Posts: 416
Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
Favorite Game: Lotus Land StoryFavorite Character: KurumiCustom Title: Shmup ActivistMini-Profile Background: {"image":"http://i.imgur.com/vCjtWSH.png","color":"d9da24"}Mini Profile Text Color: 183303Mini-Profile Name Color: f00619
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 3, 2015 13:03:23 GMT
You're forgetting that the Netherlands was allowed to trade with the Japanese in exchange for the Dutch to well... Scare all the other countries away from the Japanese seas, also Japan had some trade with China too. Both countries had iron during that time so iron was pretty much available for trade. By the time trade opened, they would have stopped using iron and would have moved onto steel, wouldn't they? (Also its strange how Suwako didn't have any bronze to arm her followers with.) I'm getting my years mixed up. Iron probably was cheaper than steel, I don't really know that much about that but a lot does matter in trade, I can imagine the finances of a country like Japan during that period weren't that good considering it was kind of isolated mostly; there was war quite a lot too. So maybe they took a cheaper option? This is pretty much making an assumption though. |
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Aki
Illusionist Crown
Posts: 1,910
夢幻の冠帯
Favorite Game: The Embodiment of Scarlet DevilFavorite Character: Remilia ScarletCustom Title: Illusionist CrownMini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"ffffff"}Mini Profile Text Color: 000000Mini-Profile Name Color: ff0000
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Post by Aki on Aug 3, 2015 13:06:26 GMT
By the time trade opened, they would have stopped using iron and would have moved onto steel, wouldn't they? (Also its strange how Suwako didn't have any bronze to arm her followers with.) I'm getting my years mixed up. Iron probably was cheaper than steel, I don't really know that much about that but a lot does matter in trade, I can imagine the finances of a country like Japan during that period weren't that good considering it was kind of isolated mostly; there was war quite a lot too. So maybe they took a cheaper option? This is pretty much making an assumption though. If they were that poor then they would have just use Iron for the spear tips and arrow tips. Which goes back to my original point that rusty tips are perfectly battle worthy, provided you're not fighting armored opponents. |
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