Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
Posts: 416 
Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 2, 2015 11:41:16 GMT
Hhm, Elis is also 'possibly' a vampire, gonna mention that. Also on another note, there's quite a lot of kinds of danmaku, mind you but Remilia also uses knives as danmaku. (Also Sakuya does use stuff like the giant bubble-danmaku too) thus, she's certainly capable of using more kinds of danmaku. There's quite a lot of speculation about how Sakuya is related to Eirin but iirc her name was found in one of the mangas in one of Eirin's documents (I could be wrong, if so, go ahead and tell me.) iirc there're more things to note about Sakuya that seem somewhat hinting towards lunarian, but no theories have been stated so everything's possible. The wiki lists her as "devil" like Koa, which is why I didn't include them. I always took Remi's knives as her taking knife throwing lessons from Sakuya at one point, hence the relatively simple patterns they form. Sakuya still predominantly uses knives in her spells, or kunais, the knives were specified to be silver which I took as being specific because I don't understand why it would be so significant. For the lunarian aspect, I took it as either Sakuya being of lunarian descent somehow, or it's a human Eirin was keeping tabs on because of her time ability's similarity to Kaguya's. (I'm leaning towards the latter) ZUN did say something along the lines of Sakuya being very relevant in terms of the plot, so I'm probably wrong on all counts and the truth is something really...Out there. xD Actually, the Wiki is wrong then. iirc in MS's extra stage credits (yes, that exists.) the youkai/whatever the characters are stated. for HRtP only Reimu's is stated which is "Shaman" there's a lot of implications of Elis being a vampire (has vampire-like wings, can turn into a bat.) There's never anything that stated Elis to be a devil so the wiki just took a guess out of the blue, that should definitely be edited to 'presumably a vampire but unstated' to hold it as canon as possible. (Yes, I was looking at my MS credits.) You forget one thing, I only named Remilia as an example. Seiga for example, also throws knives. There're more characters in the series which throw knives/kunai at the player than just Sakuya or Remilia, it's not an EoSD-cast specific thing  Maybe that we'll know what Sakuya is exactly one day, oh well. |
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
Posts: 416
Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 2, 2015 11:43:54 GMT
The wiki lists her as "devil" like Koa, which is why I didn't include them. I always took Remi's knives as her taking knife throwing lessons from Sakuya at one point, hence the relatively simple patterns they form. Sakuya still predominantly uses knives in her spells, or kunais, the knives were specified to be silver which I took as being specific because I don't understand why it would be so significant. For the lunarian aspect, I took it as either Sakuya being of lunarian descent somehow, or it's a human Eirin was keeping tabs on because of her time ability's similarity to Kaguya's. (I'm leaning towards the latter) ZUN did say something along the lines of Sakuya being very relevant in terms of the plot, so I'm probably wrong on all counts and the truth is something really...Out there. xD Actually, the Wiki is wrong then. iirc in MS's extra stage credits (yes, that exists.) the youkai/whatever the characters are stated. for HRtP only Reimu's is stated which is "Shaman" there's a lot of implications of Elis being a vampire (has vampire-like wings, can turn into a bat.) There's never anything that stated Elis to be a devil so the wiki just took a guess out of the blue, that should definitely be edited to 'presumably a vampire but unstated' to hold it as canon as possible. (Yes, I was looking at my MS credits.) You forget one thing, I only named Remilia as an example. Seiga for example, also throws knives. There're more characters in the series which throw knives/kunai at the player than just Sakuya or Remilia, it's not an EoSD-cast specific thing Maybe that we'll know what Sakuya is exactly one day, oh well. Edit: on a relevant note to the Elis discussion, I know that vampires are often categorised as 'devils' but it's not exactly the same; thus kind of wrong to presumably put there, as well as nothing being stated; there still being a difference in the classification of a vampire and devil on the wiki for the characters which are stated to be one. |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 11:48:41 GMT
According to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, and the Imperishable Night miniature summary profiles for Remilia which catalog various susceptibilities possessed by Vampires, silver is mysteriously excluded from mention, as the only significant mention being speculation conveniently provided by Akyuu (who isn't perfectly reliable given several misinformed statements in her various documentation throughout the literary publications of Touhou). Crosses, for example, aren't necessarily a vulnerability to Vampires, according to Remilia, herself, despite Christian interpretation of such counter-measures against the unholy.
Take admonishment with that statement however, since Sakuya's possession of such a precious material isn't without its significance given Sakuya doesn't appear overtly gullible enough to attempt assassinating a remarkably elite youkai with such immeasurably ineffective weaponry. Of course, to add to the Vampire Hunter theory also provided by Akyuu, this could have been what caused Sakuya's defeat at Remilia's hands, added with her superior physical and magical abilities, and experience.
On the Lunarian theory, and Sakuya's mysterious inability to apparently age, it's extremely convoluted, and most theories are likely heavily shattering canon and simply involve and overwhelming amount of conjecture to explain, smaller, possibly irrelevant, details.
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
Posts: 416
Playing Touhou and doing lots of stuff.
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 2, 2015 11:55:33 GMT
Actually, the Wiki is wrong then. iirc in MS's extra stage credits (yes, that exists.) the youkai/whatever the characters are stated. for HRtP only Reimu's is stated which is "Shaman" there's a lot of implications of Elis being a vampire (has vampire-like wings, can turn into a bat.) There's never anything that stated Elis to be a devil so the wiki just took a guess out of the blue, that should definitely be edited to 'presumably a vampire but unstated' to hold it as canon as possible. (Yes, I was looking at my MS credits.) You forget one thing, I only named Remilia as an example. Seiga for example, also throws knives. There're more characters in the series which throw knives/kunai at the player than just Sakuya or Remilia, it's not an EoSD-cast specific thing Maybe that we'll know what Sakuya is exactly one day, oh well. Yes, but I wasn't referring to just the act of knife throwing, I was speculating as to why exactly Sakuya's knives in particular were explicitly mentioned to be silver knives. Explicitly mentioning it leads me to believe there is some significance in it. (Also if you want to talk Danmaku types a tonne of characters throw knives, especially if you include Kunai, in that case, I struggle to think up people who do not throw knives rather than vice versa.) I assumed the difference is whether they subsist on blood or not. I see, well the easiest is to say there is a possible hint towards her backstory of possible occupation, on the contrary maybe that she likes the shining of silver? There's much to be assumed about it but it definitely does correlate with the vampirehunter theory. As for the difference between devils and vampires, there's also weaknesses that aren't shared between the both of them. 'devil' is actually a rather broad term if you look at how much different kind of 'devils' are included whereas vampires have more specified info to them. I can see how some people would see them falling in the category of 'devils' but it's still a bit different since a lot of things are known about vampires; quite a lot of speculation exists about them. There's also another thing I could say, which is the theory that a bite of a vampire turns (a usually healthy) human into a vampire after some time, it's a theory but I don't think the human that transformed into a vampire would exactly count as a 'devil' by then. |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 12:07:54 GMT
According to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, and the Imperishable Night miniature summary profiles for Remilia which catalog various susceptibilities possessed by Vampires, silver is mysteriously excluded from mention, as the only significant mention being speculation conveniently provided by Akyuu (who isn't perfectly reliable given several misinformed statements in her various documentation throughout the literary publications of Touhou). Crosses, for example, aren't necessarily a vulnerability to Vampires, according to Remilia, herself, despite Christian interpretation of such counter-measures against the unholy. Take admonishment with that statement however, since Sakuya's possession of such a precious material isn't without its significance given Sakuya doesn't appear overtly gullible enough to attempt assassinating a remarkably elite youkai with such immeasurably ineffective weaponry. Of course, to add to the Vampire Hunter theory also provided by Akyuu, this could have been what caused Sakuya's defeat at Remilia's hands, added with her superior physical and magical abilities, and experience. On the Lunarian theory, and Sakuya's mysterious inability to apparently age, it's extremely convoluted, and most theories are likely heavily shattering canon and simply involve and overwhelming amount of conjecture to explain, smaller, possibly irrelevant, details. Most of my references are just wiki based, so I won't comment on what you say is written in PMiSS, I still need to read that. That being said, I do want to comment about how "elite" Remilia is. I do not believe she is particularly "elite" in youkai terms because she is 1. Quite young. 500 years is not very long for the more distinguished Youkai. 2. She lies a lot. Most notably being her assertions about being the descendant of Vlad Tepes and about her apparent strength and speed when fighting Yorihime. I agree that silver is probably highly ineffective, at least against Remilia herself, since Remilia has no qualms about the silver weapons lying around the house. Although it doesn't mean it wasn't effective hundreds of years ago in the outside world. Faith is what youkai sustain on, and thus may be affected by society's impression of them. Nowadays Vampires may not be afraid of many of it's more well known weaknesses may be because of scientific advancement, such as when it comes to the properties of silver. Remilia's superiority is constantly mentioned amongst the literary publications, specifically in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense mentioning that Vampires are among the most powerful and dominate species in existence: "Of the newer youkai that have emerged only within the last few centuries, vampires are among the strongest of them, strong enough to take part in the power-balance of Gensokyo (*1) by now. Vampires have tremendous physical abilities and magical power: they are able to uproot a thousand-year-old tree single-handedly, to run through the human village within the blink of an eye, to summon many devils with a single word, to turn into bats or even mist to intrude anywhere they please, and they can recover within a single night even when their body is blown away, so long as their head is intact. Some youkai have abilities to this level of power, but only vampires are known to possess all of them." With Immaterial and Missing Power's profiled explicitly stating: "Faster than the eye can follow, strong enough to crush boulders, powerful enough to manipulate demons, she's so strong it's almost not fair, so she doesn't care much for subtle technique." Remilia's innate dishonestly cannot take priority over established canon with Silent Sinner in Blue heavily mentioned her "tremendous physical abilities as a vampire." With canonically established information such as what I've previously provided, it's ultimately undeniable to say Remilia remains a influential and dominating force in Gensokyo's unnatural hierarchy. |
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Zigzagwolf
Shmup Activist
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Post by Zigzagwolf on Aug 2, 2015 12:12:53 GMT
I see, well the easiest is to say there is a possible hint towards her backstory of possible occupation, on the contrary maybe that she likes the shining of silver? There's much to be assumed about it but it definitely does correlate with the vampirehunter theory. As for the difference between devils and vampires, there's also weaknesses that aren't shared between the both of them. 'devil' is actually a rather broad term if you look at how much different kind of 'devils' are included whereas vampires have more specified info to them. I can see how some people would see them falling in the category of 'devils' but it's still a bit different since a lot of things are known about vampires; quite a lot of speculation exists about them. There's also another thing I could say, which is the theory that a bite of a vampire turns (a usually healthy) human into a vampire after some time, it's a theory but I don't think the human that transformed into a vampire would exactly count as a 'devil' by then. Silver is one of the metals that doesn't like to stay shiny. xD My theory is that it USED to be effective against western youkai invaders of the SDM. It makes little sense why such a large mansion would not be the target of any youkai seeking a base and faith. It's just my guess based on little to no info, but I think Gensokyo's vampires subscribe to the ghoul theory of vampires. The reason why I am led to believe this is because Remi's reason for not being able to create more vampires is because she is far too light of an eater turn a human into a vampire...Yet it is enough to turn her dress pink. So if that amount drained out of a person is still not enough, then I actually think a vampire needs to such someone's blood dry to begin the turning process- Which makes the victim's appearance look a lot like that of a traditional ghoul. Shiny until they get rusty or dirty then! She throws them away like it's nothing at a target anyways. I don't really know if silver's a material that's strong against some of the western youkai, but I guess it's a possibility. As for the 'light-eater' theory, I think there was something about Flandre pretty much being unable to get herself food as she kind of explodes it; leaves no trace of the food. So I think it kind of differs per vampire (it's a possibility.) Also Kurumi pretty much living at the lake of blood makes me wonder how all that blood got there... left-overs?! It's a rather strange idea but maybe that some vampires are kind of ferocious with their food; others more gentle or easy-going with it? |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 12:47:42 GMT
Remilia's superiority is constantly mentioned amongst the literary publications, specifically in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense mentioning that Vampires are among the most powerful and dominate species in existence: "Of the newer youkai that have emerged only within the last few centuries, vampires are among the strongest of them, strong enough to take part in the power-balance of Gensokyo (*1) by now. Vampires have tremendous physical abilities and magical power: they are able to uproot a thousand-year-old tree single-handedly, to run through the human village within the blink of an eye, to summon many devils with a single word, to turn into bats or even mist to intrude anywhere they please, and they can recover within a single night even when their body is blown away, so long as their head is intact. Some youkai have abilities to this level of power, but only vampires are known to possess all of them." With Immaterial and Missing Power's profiled explicitly stating: "Faster than the eye can follow, strong enough to crush boulders, powerful enough to manipulate demons, she's so strong it's almost not fair, so she doesn't care much for subtle technique." Remilia's innate dishonestly cannot take priority over established canon with Silent Sinner in Blue heavily mentioned her "tremendous physical abilities as a vampire." With canonically established information such as what I've previously provided, it's ultimately undeniable to say Remilia remains a influential and dominating force in Gensokyo's unnatural hierarchy. The issue is that high tier youkai has a lot more going for them than just speed or power. For instance Okuu literally has the power of the yatagarasu and the onis like Yuugi can control unexplainable phenomena. This isn't even mentioning the likes of Yukari and Eiki. So in youkai terms? No, not very elite at all, not until she can actually control that fate power of her's. As for being an "influential power in gensokyo" yeah, sure she is. But remember Gensokyo funtions on the spellcard system, vampires are not as overpowered in this system because they are melee based first and foremost and have to rely on ranged during danmaku fights on top of the spellcard rules, makes her true strength as a youkai irrelevant. Thus my statement on her influence is based more on the number of people in her faction and their confrontational attitude compared to the other gensokyian superpowers. Before the continuation of our previous discussion, what reliable sources state that Eiki is an extremely powerful entity? Just an interesting question regardless of response, I was merely intrigued by your interpretation on such a matter. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 12:56:50 GMT
I remember something cannon stating that if she were to go all out, the combined strength of Yuyuko Reimu and Yukari won't be enough to defeat her...... now where that came from exactly, I can't remember ;-;
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 13:02:13 GMT
Now a question from me, or twwo actually, do you guys think Yoshika still remember life from when she was a human? and second how do you guys think she feels about Seiga?
I divided the posts because one was an answer, and this one is a question
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ZM
Kochiyaist
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Arahitogami~
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Post by ZM on Aug 2, 2015 13:03:05 GMT
My favorite is the orphan theory and how Remilia would give her a home after she and Flandre moved to Gensokyo, personally. I think she is way too full of Ripper references and vampire killing references to be a Gensokyian, the Scarlets and Kurumi are the only vampires in Gensokyo and there is no reason to use the lethal material of silver in a world where problems are solved via danmaku. True, and that's where your theory begins to make the most sense. |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 13:05:50 GMT
Now a question from me, or twwo actually, do you guys think Yoshika still remember life from when she was a human? and second how do you guys think she feels about Seiga? I divided the posts because one was an answer, and this one is a question Symposium of Post-mysticism does mention she occasionally reverts to her previous personality when alive, and verbally recites poetry, but due to the decomposition of her brain, despite Seiga's anti-decomposition countermeasures taken against it, makes it extraordinarily bizarre. |
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ZM
Kochiyaist
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Arahitogami~
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Post by ZM on Aug 2, 2015 13:08:32 GMT
That's why this series is built off a lot of headcanons. XD Then ZUN ruins them/makes them real.
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 13:18:58 GMT
Before the continuation of our previous discussion, what reliable sources state that Eiki is an extremely powerful entity? Just an interesting question regardless of response, I was merely intrigued by your interpretation on such a matter. I want to ask what reliable sources are there for touhou anyway? Every one of them is criticized enough to establish that it is unreliable in some way, barring actual events that transpire throughout the games/mangas. My assumption was based on the fact that she is the Yamaxanadu, and has the ability of the rules themselves. Since she is lawful and has a moral compass that adheres to said rules, it can be said that any punishment she deals is of her will. Since there are no accounts of anyone being capable of disregarding the judgement of a yama, it is sufficient to believe her to be very powerful entity since she is unopposable when demonstrating power of her own volition. I thought of this as sufficient evidence, although still superficial- But most touhou evidence is superficial and subjective as all hell (or just plain vague or unreliable), so I really didn't bother trying to find "solid" evidence for it. You exceeded my expectations since I originally expected the misunderstood, and supremely ambiguous statement regarding Eiki's strength in comparison with Yukari's, which is presently interpreted as remarkably inaccurate, and fortunately, Fanon. Touhou profound subjectivity and personal interpretations, added with its ambiguous nature are the most crucial pieces of its success, and why conspiracy theorists constantly conceive moderately outrageous or believable resolutions to intentional questions ZUN purposely leaves. Why else are we so creative and original? Its vagueness is its greatest ally. |
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eonleader
Posts: 77
Not just a Touhou
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Post by eonleader on Aug 2, 2015 13:40:44 GMT
Human. I can't remember how I think she got there...but she would have been there before it moved to Gensokyo, that's for sure. My favorite is the orphan theory and how Remilia would give her a home after she and Flandre moved to Gensokyo, personally. Well I'd say she had parents but I honestly haven't thought how Remi might have taken Sakuya away from her. Also I too believe Eiki is the most powerful, or rather has access to the most power - she doesn't necessarily use all of it. Yukari seems to be the most immediately powerful, based on just abilities. But the Xanadu has more if she needs it. More interesting I reckon would be who has the most power under the Spell Card Rules. And I'm not just talking here about stage levels - I reckon some can genuinely use more of their power under the rules than others. |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 13:49:00 GMT
My favorite is the orphan theory and how Remilia would give her a home after she and Flandre moved to Gensokyo, personally. Well I'd say she had parents but I honestly haven't thought how Remi might have taken Sakuya away from her. Also I too believe Eiki is the most powerful, or rather has access to the most power - she doesn't necessarily use all of it. Yukari seems to be the most immediately powerful, based on just abilities. But the Xanadu has more if she needs it. More interesting I reckon would be who has the most power under the Spell Card Rules. And I'm not just talking here about stage levels - I reckon some can genuinely use more of their power under the rules than others. Of course, we additionally have the ever-elusive Dragon God mentioned in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, and various subsequent sources in that discussion also. |
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eonleader
Posts: 77
Not just a Touhou
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Post by eonleader on Aug 2, 2015 14:18:19 GMT
Difficult to consider it a character when we don't even know where it is. But if you throw it in then yes, it is the obvious choice.
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 14:20:45 GMT
There is also Watatsuki no mary sue as well. It's unforgivable, Aki. Truly unforgivable. Watatsuki no Yoracheatin'. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 14:21:22 GMT
Is there a reason Seija doesn't hear into the Underground during ISC, barring technical reasons or space limitations with the game itself? Posting again because no one answered it as is normal to me |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
Favorite Game: Perfect Cherry BlossomFavorite Character: Remilia ScarletCustom Title: Daughter of ColdharbourMini-Profile Background: {"image":"http://i.imgur.com/ZFT90pi.png?1","color":""}Mini Profile Text Color: faf1f1Mini-Profile Name Color: f5eeee
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 14:23:46 GMT
Difficult to consider it a character when we don't even know where it is. But if you throw it in then yes, it is the obvious choice. For an apparently, widely-worshiped "monotheistic" deity of supposed unparalleled power, its mention is significantly absent from your typical conversation. |
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Royalty of House Scarlet
Daughter of Coldharbour
Posts: 463
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Post by Royalty of House Scarlet on Aug 2, 2015 14:25:31 GMT
Is there a reason Seija doesn't hear into the Underground during ISC, barring technical reasons or space limitations with the game itself? Posting again because no one answered it as is normal to me Having never experienced the game myself, I'm unfortunately unable to properly answer your question. |
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