Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on Apr 27, 2015 14:53:59 GMT
Finally got around to making this thread for all the people that are passionate about mathematics. Basically, this is the thread where you can discuss anything about Maths, whether it's about some interesting mathematical stuff that interest you, some math concepts that you have trouble understanding, or just want to post/solve fun math problems, everything related to Maths can be discussed here in this thread. That being said, if you want to solve a posted Math problem, please put your solution guesses in spoiler tags so as not to spoil it for others that wish to solve the same problem. In fact, I would also recommend clues/hints/etc to be posted in spoiler tags as well, unless they are additional information that are essentially part of the question (such as clarifying ambiguity, confirming implied assumptions that are not directly stated, etc). Feel free to post more problems even if there are some posted problems that have not yet been solved, though it is advised that you pace them properly e.g. please don't overwhelm the solvers by posting ten big unrelated new problems at once. Logical puzzles are also welcome here, especially if they involve formal logic, since they are technically related to mathematics. Problems that don't actually involve formal logic, such as problems that are centered around double meanings or making unstated assumptions, would probably be better suited to the Riddle Thread but feel free to post it here anyway if you still consider it to be a proper logic puzzle. I'm gonna start with a mathematical puzzle I solved five years ago. I like it because it doesn't require advanced mathematical concepts (only addition and multiplication, really) while still being pretty complex to solve: (rephrased and names changed btw)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 14:58:37 GMT
This question's phrased awfully like the Albert / Bernard / Cheryl circulating around recently.
Anyways, as per Proto's request:
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relick
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Post by relick on Apr 27, 2015 20:45:20 GMT
Keine's Pair of Integers (I'll admit, I had to talk a bit of it through with Proto, but got most of it myself): In the premise, we are given some basic knowledge: E = a + b Y = ab a > 1, b > 1 We can also establish at this point that Yumemi's product cannot be prime. Statement 1:Yumemi doesn't know - therefore her product cannot have just two prime factors. This therefore means that at least one of the integers cannot be prime. Statement 2:Eirin says she already knew that Yumemi didn't know. The only way she can be sure of this is if her sum cannot be the summation of two primes. If any of the potential pairs of integers that add to her sum are two primes, then Eirin could not be certain that Yumemi doesn't know. Statement 3:Now that Eirin has said this, Yumemi is suddenly able to figure it out. The only information that Yumemi has gained from statement 2 is that the sum Eirin has cannot be the summation of two primes. This heavily reduces the potential amount of sums that Eirin could have. However, multiplying the potential pairs that make up the sum (e.g. 2*9, 3*8, 4*7, 5*6 for the sum 11) will not necessarily give a unique product, when compared with other sum's pair's products (e.g. 5*6 = 30, but also, 2*15 = 30). For Yumemi to have realised the two integers, she must have a product that is unique amongst the possible products. The method I used to find this was pretty much just brute force. (In order to find the sums to work with in the first place, a simple formula was '2 + x = sum' where x is a non-prime odd integer). The only sums that you needed to work with in order to find an answer were 11, 17, 23, 27, 29, 35 and 37. My working to find a potential answer is shown below (warning, large image): Now that I've found 4 and 13 (as has Yumemi), I should be able to say this is the answer, right? Not so. I've only tested the cases up to a certain point, for all I know there could be another pair that is equally as likely. This is where the fourth statement comes in. Statement 4Before the third statement, Eirin did not know the integers. Yumemi discovered using the second statement's information, in combination with the product that she knows, the two integers Keine gave. With statement 4, Eirin boldly declares that she knows the integer pair. It's important to remember at this point that the two girls are perfect mathematicians. If there was even just one other possibility than (4,13) that existed, Eirin would be uncertain of the answer and so could not make this statement. Therefore, while earlier 4 and 13 was a possibility, with the fourth statement it is a certainty. Answer: 4 and 13 are the integers Keine gave.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 0:01:10 GMT
Ah, finally got it. Not really confident about my logic, though. (Keine's integer pair) If you're wondering how I got [4,7] and [4,13] quickly, I made a pretty daring assumption, which I'm not sure is valid. Given that a and b have to be even and odd (let's say a is even and b is odd), and that ab only has one such even/odd integer pair, there are a few cases we can eliminate: Case 1: b cannot be composite. Say that b = xy. x and y are clearly odd. Hence, there will be even/odd pairs (a,b), (ax,y), (ay,x). Hence b is prime.
Case 2: a must not be divisible by an odd number. Say a = uv, where u is even and v is odd. Then there will be even/odd pairs (a,b), (u,bv), (bu,v). Since we earlier set the requirement that a is even, a has to be some power of two.
All that was left to do was try combinations where the sum is 2+p (p is an odd non-prime).
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on Apr 29, 2015 11:16:56 GMT
Keine's Pair of Integers (I'll admit, I had to talk a bit of it through with Proto, but got most of it myself): Answer: 4 and 13 are the integers Keine gave. Ah, finally got it. Not really confident about my logic, though. (Keine's integer pair) She concludes that the solution is [4,13].If you're wondering how I got [4,7] and [4,13] quickly, I made a pretty daring assumption, which I'm not sure is valid. Given that a and b have to be even and odd (let's say a is even and b is odd), and that ab only has one such even/odd integer pair, there are a few cases we can eliminate: Case 1: b cannot be composite. Say that b = xy. x and y are clearly odd. Hence, there will be even/odd pairs (a,b), (ax,y), (ay,x). Hence b is prime.
Case 2: a must not be divisible by an odd number. Say a = uv, where u is even and v is odd. Then there will be even/odd pairs (a,b), (u,bv), (bu,v). Since we earlier set the requirement that a is even, a has to be some power of two.
All that was left to do was try combinations where the sum is 2+p (p is an odd non-prime).
Both of these are correct. Good job! As for how I handled this problem, First two statements, combined with Goldbach's conjecture, indicate that the sum must be 2 + composite number. Which I would consider to be a "valid sum". All I had to do after that was go through each valid sum one by one, and check how many of its possible pairs will form a product that can be factored into a different pair that forms another valid sum. Although this is technically still brute force, I ended up finding the solution after checking only the second valid sum (17), so there was no need to iterate on Excel or try enforcing more assumptions to narrow down the possible pairs. I didn't actually know about Goldbach's conjecture at that time though, so it took me a while to realize that none of the even numbers I tested appeared to be valid sums before I decided to assume that all even numbers are invalid sums.
In any case, using Goldbach's conjecture to help narrow down solutions is fine. It could easily be shown that (4,13) works as a solution without having to resort to Goldbach's conjecture, so (4,13) is still a formally proven solution. As for Myon's 8x8 chessboard coins magic tile problem, this is the solution that I propose: Basically, Prisoner A converts the Magic Tile location into a 6-bit binary number. Prisoner A then reads the state of the coins to generate a 6-bit number and compares it with the Magic Tile number. Prisoner A flips exactly one coin to ensure that the 6-bit number from the state of the coins matches with the Magic Tile number. Prisoner B reads the states of the coins to generate the 6-bit number and deduces the Magic Tile from just that. Details: Converting Magic Tile Location into a 6-bit numberEach tile can be assigned a unique number from 0 to 63. This can be achieved by simply counting up the numbers as you read through all the tiles in any manner. The number is then converted into 6-bit binary (2^6 = 64, so 0 to 63 can be accommodated with only 6 bits). For example, A1 = 000000, A2 = 000001, A3 = 000010, ... H7 = 111110, and H8 = 111111. Converting the state of the coins into a 6-bit numberThis one is a bit more complicated. Here's how I'll explain it. A 6-bit binary has 6 bit positions, right? Let's number them from position 0 to position 5 (with position 0 being the LSB i.e. last bit). Now, each tile is supposed to represent a unique combination of numbers from 0 to 5. The number of such possible combinations is Combinations of 0 numbers + Comb. of 1 number + Comb. of 2 numbers + Comb. of 3 numbers + Comb. of 4 numbers + Comb. of 5 numbers + Comb. of 6 numbers = C(6,0) + C(6,1) + C(6,2) + C(6,3) + C(6,4) + C(6,5) + C(6,6) = 1 + 6 + 15 + 20 + 15 + 6 + 1 = 64 which is exactly the number of tiles there are. Therefore, each tile can have a unique combination. One possible example of a setup is: A1 - (nothing)
A2 - 0 A3 - 1 A4 - 2 A5 - 3 A6 - 4 A7 - 5
A8 - 01 B1 - 02 B2 - 03 B3 - 04 B4 - 05 B5 - 12 B6 - 13 B7 - 14 B8 - 15 C1 - 23 C2 - 24 C3 - 25 C4 - 34 C5 - 35 C6 - 45
C7 - 012 C8 - 013 D1 - 014 D2 - 015 D3 - 023 D4 - 024 D5 - 025 D6 - 034 D7 - 035 D8 - 045 E1 - 123 E2 - 124 E3 - 125 E4 - 134 E5 - 135 E6 - 145 E7 - 234 E8 - 235 F1 - 245 F2 - 345
F3 - 0123 F4 - 0124 F5 - 0125 F6 - 0134 F7 - 0135 F8 - 0145 G1 - 0234 G2 - 0235 G3 - 0245 G4 - 0345 G5 - 1234 G6 - 1235 G7 - 1245 G8 - 1345 H1 - 2345
H2 - 01234 H3 - 01235 H4 - 01245 H5 - 01345 H6 - 02345 H7 - 12345
H8 - 123456 So how does this help convert the state of 64 coins into a single 6-bit string? Well, the idea is to calculate the value of each bit, one at a time. Each coin state represents a 1 (heads) or a 0 (tails). Each of the six bits are calculated by adding the coin states of every tile that represents that bit position. For example, Bit #4 is found by adding the coin states of every tile that has the number 4 in its unique combination. When I say add coin states, I mean to add them in mod 2 aka taking the odd parity aka applying XOR on the coin states. Prisoner A flipping exactly one coin to make the coin state 6-bit string equal to the Magic Tile 6-bit stringThis is pretty simple. After computing both of these bit strings, Prisoner A will compare them with each other and note down which bit positions are different. Prisoner A will then flip the tile that represents exactly the combination of unmatched bit positions. For example, if the Magic Tile is at 011010 and the Coin State bit string is calculated as 110011, then only bit positions 0, 3, and 5 are different. Prisoner A will flip the coin on the tile that represents the combination 035, which is D7 in the spoilered setup example. If the two bit strings already match, then Prisoner A will flip the coin on the tile that represents the empty combination, which is A1 in the spoilered example. This coin's state is not involved in any of the calculations so it will not alter any results. Prisoner B finding the magic tilePrisoner B will compute the bit string corresponding to the coin states. Thanks to A's flipping, this should now become equal to the bit string for Magic Tile. Prisoner B can now convert the Magic Tile bit string into its coordinates and identify the Magic Tile. Please confirm whether the solution is correct and also let me know if it's different from the solution you're aware of.
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relick
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Post by relick on Apr 29, 2015 17:44:17 GMT
ProtoTo be honest, I'm not particularly happy with my solution for that: I mean, (4,13) works, sure. But I don't see how you can be sure that there is not another sum/product pair that would also allow those statements to be true. Is there any logic I've looked over that forces it to be 4 and 13?
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on May 2, 2015 4:28:05 GMT
ProtoTo be honest, I'm not particularly happy with my solution for that: I mean, (4,13) works, sure. But I don't see how you can be sure that there is not another sum/product pair that would also allow those statements to be true. Is there any logic I've looked over that forces it to be 4 and 13? Regarding Keine's Integer Pair, Hmmm, yeah, there are apparently other solutions. I edited the original question to add a constraint that the sum of the numbers must be less or equal to 100. I haven't checked whether there are any other solutions myself, but I've eliminated all the other possible solutions that I heard of from elsewhere. On the topic of chessboards, here's another problem: Also, you guys should post problems or other stuff too!
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 5:19:47 GMT
Got your problem in the bag Aniue~ b = blank w = wolf s= sheep
bsbbs bbbbs wbbbb wbbwb bbwwb
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on May 2, 2015 7:55:21 GMT
Got your problem in the bag Aniue~ b = blank w = wolf s= sheep
bsbbs bbbbs wbbbb wbbwb bbwwb
Yup, that is correct. Did you solve it directly as it was or did you... Did you instead change the problem into 3 wolves and 5 sheep, which results in the same problem (since just as sheep can't be in a wolf's range, it also means that wolves can't be in a sheep's range). It's easier to place three queens for five safe spaces rather than place five queens for three safe spaces, despite them being the same problem. Either way, good job! I guess I should post another then:
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relick
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Post by relick on May 2, 2015 9:12:44 GMT
I accidentally looked at Vex's answer when just reading through unread posts on the forum, so I guess I shouldn't do that one. Here's Buckets of Water - fairly simple puzzle and Layton has taught me well on how to do them (8,0,0) means 8 litres in the 8 bucket, 0 in 5 and 0 in 3. 8->5 means fill up the 5 litre bucket with as much as possible without spilling using the contents of the 8 litre bucket.
8->5 (3,5,0) 5->3 (3,2,3) 3->8 (6,2,0) 5->3 (6,0,2) 8->5 (1,5,2) 5->3 (1,4,3) 3->8 (4,4,0)
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on May 2, 2015 9:45:51 GMT
I accidentally looked at Vex's answer when just reading through unread posts on the forum, so I guess I shouldn't do that one. Well, unless you memorized the locations of wolf/sheep, you can still attempt it. Yup, that works! The last step is unnecessary since you already got 4 liters, hehe. Maybe I should post more Math problems instead of just puzzles. Let's try some Geometry!
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Ariezza
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Post by Ariezza on May 2, 2015 9:58:33 GMT
Just in case, Momimo = wolf, Patchy = sheep Also I did this by changing it into 3 wolves and 5 sheeps. Red angle = aBlue angle = b~ According to the Triangle Angle Sum Theorem: x + 2a + 2b = 180 (for the big triangle) 2x + a + b = 180 (for the small triangle) -> a + b = 180 - 2x -> x + 2a + 2b = 2x + a + b --> x - (a + b) = 0 ---> x - (180 - 2x) = 0 ----> 3x = 180 -------> x = 60 Note: r = radius of quarter-circle (instead of semi-circle, like in the picture, my brain isn't working ;__; )
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 14:10:02 GMT
...alright, here goes. Wolves and SheepHmm, this took a bit of trial and error, but I finally got it. White queens represent the wolves, white pawns represent illegal spaces, black pawns represent the sheep. Buckets of Water 1. Begin. (8, 0, 0) 2. Fill the 5 liter bucket. (3, 5, 0) 3. Fill the 3 liter bucket with water from the 5 liter bucket. (3, 2, 3) 4. Empty the 3 liter bucket into the 8 liter bucket. (6, 2, 0) 5. Transfer water from the 5 liter bucket to the 3 liter bucket. (6, 0, 2) 6. Fill the 5 liter bucket with water from the 8 liter bucket. (1, 5, 2) 7. Fill the 3 liter bucket with water from the 5 liter bucket. (1, 4, 3) 8. Done!
Geometry ProblemsQuestion 1 Note that the intersection area is formed by two equilateral triangles of side length 1 and four segments.
Area of equilateral triangle: sqrt(3)/4 Area of 60 deg sector: pi/6 Segment area: pi/6 - sqrt(3)/4 Area of intersection: 2*triangle + 4*segment = sqrt(3)/2 + 2pi/3 - sqrt(3) = 2pi/3 - sqrt(3)/2
Question 2 The two sides of the triangle with 2x are equal, as the configuration is basically the "angle at the centre of the circle is twice angle at the circumference of the circle" theorem. Thus, red angle = blue angle = 90-x. Then, 180 = x + 4(90-x) 180 = 360 - 3x X = 60
Question 3 For the sake of simplicity, say the large quadrant has a radius of 2.
Area of small quadrant: pi/4 Red area: pi/4 - (1-pi/4) = pi/2 - 1 Non-blue area: pi - (pi/2 - 1) = pi/2 + 1 Blue area: pi - (pi/2 + 1) = pi/2 - 1
Hence, ratio is 1:1.
Could I have confirmation of these solutions? Also, sorry for horrible presentation, I'm on a phone.
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on May 2, 2015 15:24:32 GMT
Ariezza: All three are correct and very elegantly presented, thank you~ Any luck with Geometry Problem 1 though? @darkpermafrost: All technically correct, though with some small issues. Wolves and Sheep Fully correct, though I am curious as to whether you tried to solve for 5 queens, 3 safespots or realized that it is equivalent to 3 queens, 5 safespots. Geometry Problem 2 The assumption about the red angle being equal to the blue angle is not valid, because although the theorem you quoted is true, its converse isn't necessarily valid. That being said, your working assumed a specific case (that the red and blue angles are equal) and the nature of the question as it is presented implies that the solution to x is constant i.e. the solution to a specific case is also the solution to the general case. So although your solution is correct, your approach remains insufficient to prove that x is always equal to 60 degrees, since it only considered the specific case of red angle = blue angle. Geometry Problem 3 I don't understand how you calculated the red area or the non-blue area. On what basis did you deduce that "Red area: pi/4 - (1-pi/4)"? I'm very confused as to how any integer (1) could be added or subtracted to find areas defined by circular arcs. Can you please clarify this? Looks like Geometry problems are pretty popular. Let's put some tougher ones then:
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 0:07:36 GMT
First, clarifications. Wolves and Sheep No, I actually didn't notice that. I was just fooling around with initial placements of one or two wolves then attempting to find possible places for the rest.
GeometryQuestion 2 Alright. In that case: red + blue = k 2x + k = x + 2k = 180 x = k 3x = 180 x = 60
Question 3 Imagine the small quadrant (of radius 1) is bounded by a square of side 1. Then let's call the area in the square but not in the quadrant A (A = 1 - pi/4). Thus, the red area is simply 1 - 2A, or pi/4 - A, which is pi/2 - 1.
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on May 3, 2015 2:34:59 GMT
First, clarifications. Wolves and Sheep No, I actually didn't notice that. I was just fooling around with initial placements of one or two wolves then attempting to find possible places for the rest.
GeometryQuestion 2 Alright. In that case: red + blue = k 2x + k = x + 2k = 180 x = k 3x = 180 x = 60
Question 3 Imagine the small quadrant (of radius 1) is bounded by a square of side 1. Then let's call the area in the square but not in the quadrant A (A = 1 - pi/4). Thus, the red area is simply 1 - 2A, or pi/4 - A, which is pi/2 - 1. Ah, yes, I understand. All correct, good job! Try the other Geomtery problems now~
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Ariezza
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Post by Ariezza on May 3, 2015 9:14:22 GMT
5. A heart is constructed from two semi-circles and an equilateral triangle, as shown in the diagram below. The area of the heart is x cm 2, and the perimeter of the heart is also x cm. What is the exact radius of the semi-circles in the diagram?
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Proto
It looks kind of like a big fluffy muffin!
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Post by Proto on May 3, 2015 10:35:02 GMT
5. A heart is constructed from two semi-circles and an equilateral triangle, as shown in the diagram below. The area of the heart is x cm 2, and the perimeter of the heart is also x cm. What is the exact radius of the semi-circles in the diagram? Yup, correct~ We've been having too much Geometry for a while, so some people wanted some other kind of problems, preferably more to do with logic or creativity as opposed to raw number-crunching. Here goes
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relick
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Post by relick on May 6, 2015 15:31:50 GMT
All I have done for now, still trying with the fourth problem but currently not gotten far. Geometry 1: Consider half the area of intersection - it is just a segment of the unit circle. To find the angle T at the intersection, just consider when cosT = 1/2. T is pi/3, and so the full angle of the segment is 2pi/3. Finally, calculate the area of the segment and multiply by two => A = 2*(pi/3 - sqrt3/4) = 2pi/3 - sqrt3/2 Geometry 2: Nice and simple simultaneous equations, here. Label the red angle 'y' and the blue angle 'z'. (I also used degrees, just to simplify typing it out.) 180 - y - z = 2x (1) 180 - 2y - 2z = x (2) 2*(1): 360 - 2y - 2z = 4x (3) (3) - (2): 180 = 3x x = 60 Geometry 3: Label the blue area A, and the red area B. Give the semi-circles radius x, and therefore the quarter circle has radius 2x. A = pi(2x)^2/4 - pi(x)^2/2 - pi(x)^2/2 + B Simplifies to A = B, therefore the ratio is 1. Geometry 4: x = 15 - 6sqrt5 Geometry 5: Let A be the area and P the perimeter. A = 2(pi(r)^2/2) + (1/2)(4r)(4r)(sqrt3/2) = pi(r^2) + 4sqrt3(r^2) P = 2((2pi(r))/2) + 2(4r) = 2pi(r) + 8r
A and P are equal: 2pi(r) + 8r = pi(r^2) + 4sqrt3(r^2) (pi + 4sqrt3)(r^2) - (2pi + 8)r = 0
Solve for r: r = (8 + 2pi)/(4sqrt3 + pi)
or r = 0
Geometry 6: Did this on paper, but can't be bothered to type it up: r = 30 - 20sqrt2
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relick
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Post by relick on May 6, 2015 19:16:30 GMT
Wolves and Sheep on a Chessboard: A solution: How I found this (and how to find others): Made a grid of all the potential sheep positions (interestingly if you swap all the sheep for wolves in this grid, then the patterns remain the same). The green cells show where a wolf could be that would not harm the sheep. In order to find a solution, you should pick sheep positions so that if you only consider the overlapping green tiles as valid wolf positions, you have at least 5 green tiles left after you pick three sheep. It's recommended to start using a sheep that is on the edge, since it offers more possibilities for combinations (there's a possibility there are only solutions that involve sheep on the edge of the grid!) I'll do the latest logic puzzles now.
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