Dani
Cat-astrophic Furball
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Ordinary braid toucher.
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Post by Dani on Jan 11, 2015 0:45:09 GMT
So, as the three Favorite Maiden tiers have been taken, three more characters are going to be.... Tewi Shinki and Eiki Weird, but also cool Marisaaa... /sobs Welp, if Shinki is there I'm hoping Alice will be too. And hurray for Eiki!
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Frelia, nyu
it's me
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Post by Frelia, nyu on Jan 11, 2015 1:18:20 GMT
>Shinki confirmed MAXIMUM OVERHYPE
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Kaguya Houraisan
Eternal Princess
Posts: 1,629
Enlightening Moonlight
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Post by Kaguya Houraisan on Jan 11, 2015 2:08:34 GMT
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Frelia, nyu
it's me
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Post by Frelia, nyu on Jan 15, 2015 1:03:44 GMT
is the dream dead?
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the maus
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Post by the maus on Jan 15, 2015 1:06:56 GMT
omg wut no :c I thought he had permission?
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Dani
Cat-astrophic Furball
Posts: 684
Ordinary braid toucher.
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Post by Dani on Jan 15, 2015 1:09:12 GMT
I don't know if using Nintendo's mechanics is copyright infringement (I think the creators of this project would be aware of that...), though, this is for PC and not a Nintendo console, as far as I know.
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the maus
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Post by the maus on Jan 15, 2015 1:10:53 GMT
"By default we intend to release this game on Windows, Mac and Linux. We are also very interested in exploring the possibility of a console release later in development." Mmhmm, for PC. Wow, that's so saddening though. I hope they don't get the project cancelled by ZUN.... :c
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Dani
Cat-astrophic Furball
Posts: 684
Ordinary braid toucher.
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Post by Dani on Jan 15, 2015 1:11:54 GMT
Me neither... I hope ZUN too is misunderstanding something here.
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Zak
diss member
Posts: 3,881
Some touhoumon guy.
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Post by Zak on Jan 15, 2015 1:12:49 GMT
Wait what's happening? Sorry I'm stupid I see comments and a lot of moonrunes.
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Frelia, nyu
it's me
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Post by Frelia, nyu on Jan 15, 2015 1:14:39 GMT
Essentially what I'm gathering is that asking for money is a no-go, since that goes beyond doujin.
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Dani
Cat-astrophic Furball
Posts: 684
Ordinary braid toucher.
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Post by Dani on Jan 15, 2015 1:17:28 GMT
Wait what's happening? Sorry I'm stupid I see comments and a lot of moonrunes. Basically, someone shared this project on Twitter, praising it for being great and ZUN saw it and commented on it by saying "No, it's not good." The reason people are assuming he said this is because Sony is working in collaboration with him to make a Touhou Doujin game sharing platform for PS4 and something related to Nintendo could be bad publicity/ break some sort of contract rule. The thing is, this game is for PC, not a Nintendo console so I'm confused by the comments since they seem to be misunderstanding that fact. Sure, it could mean the game wouldn't be able to be played on PS4 through the platform, but that isn't a big deal because not all the Touhou doujin games are going to use it. Essentially what I'm gathering is that asking for money is a no-go, since that goes beyond doujin. Ah, so that's the problem? Hum... I don't see any problem with it though that may indeed go against ZUN's ideals.
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the maus
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Post by the maus on Jan 15, 2015 1:20:24 GMT
Yeah, even some other people are disagreeing about it too... how sad. I'm so hyped. I wanna play as 2hus in smash bros.
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Kaguya Houraisan
Eternal Princess
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Enlightening Moonlight
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Post by Kaguya Houraisan on Jan 15, 2015 4:01:18 GMT
The people in the comments are having a big misunderstanding. Honestly. If the misunderstanding can be cleared up, maybe ZUN can accept it. Yeah, it's a misunderstanding. Some people in the comments were trying to clear up the menu, and FromSoySauce himself even commented on the matter. puu.sh/exl7f/f2d1de7a5f.png1st comment: Thank you for replying! I see. However, it'd be a disappointment (if it got canceled) despite how good this (game) looks. 2nd comment: This is not a Wii U game, it's just that the person making this only and ONLY a Wii U game developer. Therefore this game will only be sold for PC. 3rd comment (FromSoySauce): Hello (ZUN), I am the creator of Touhou Smash Battles. The people replying on this topic are giving out some misinformation (and creating misunderstandings), so the people of Shanghai Alice Illusionary Band (I think he's referring to ZUN and everyone on the topic) please contact [this email]? 4th comment: HAHAHA WHAT IS THAT LANGUAGE? 5th comment: Wow, weren't there some misunderstanding made here...
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alzack13
Bun of Darkness
Posts: 936
Rabbits shall rule
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Post by alzack13 on Jan 15, 2015 4:20:36 GMT
It hasn't even been confirmed for WiiU yet. a big thing is that they wanted to talk to ZUN about it.
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Dani
Cat-astrophic Furball
Posts: 684
Ordinary braid toucher.
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Post by Dani on Jan 15, 2015 4:36:58 GMT
The people in the comments are having a big misunderstanding. Honestly. If the misunderstanding can be cleared up, maybe ZUN can accept it. 4th comment: HAHAHA WHAT IS THAT LANGUAGE? That's Spanish. "Kill'em, uncle ZUN." I hope they clear this up though, seriously... I want to play that even if Marisa isn't in it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2015 13:27:35 GMT
Hahaha, oh wow. And here I thought no one knew about the controversy. You guys should read this. Seems like it's more of an in-depth discussion regarding the controversy, with the game developer on it. Now that this has happened, I don't have hopes for this coming out.
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alzack13
Bun of Darkness
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Rabbits shall rule
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Post by alzack13 on Jan 17, 2015 17:02:07 GMT
It has been bugging me a bit, that technically the crowdfunding idea is against Doujin rules. Not sure how it'll go down, but I hope they figure SOMETHING out.
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Dani
Cat-astrophic Furball
Posts: 684
Ordinary braid toucher.
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Post by Dani on Jan 17, 2015 22:10:45 GMT
It has been bugging me a bit, that technically the crowdfunding idea is against Doujin rules. Not sure how it'll go down, but I hope they figure SOMETHING out. What's been bugging me at the moment is the dev's attitude. I've read through the posts in that thread and people gave him VERY helpful advice about what to say and how to act. One of the the biggest "misunderstandings" was that people thought the game would be released for Wii U and even the dev himself said that wasn't true, and now, in the middle of all this storm and drama he posts on their facebook page that making the game for the Wii U isn't off the table? I mean, what the hell? I honestly can't tell what he's thinking, but I can tell you it's BS and it's making the entire Western Touhou fanbase look bad. I hope he has a good explanation for that but I very much doubt it.
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Kaguya Houraisan
Eternal Princess
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Enlightening Moonlight
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Post by Kaguya Houraisan on Jan 18, 2015 2:50:23 GMT
Well it doesn't seem to have been shut down right now, so maybe there's a light of chance still.
EDIT: INCOMING LONG POST
Warning: This should be mostly accurate, including the nuances, but I may still make minor wording changes. Please don't quote anything. (Touhousubs)
Yonjin この件については昨日知ったぐらいですね I only learned about this [the controversy about Touhou Smash] yesterday.
そして彼と何回かリプライの応酬をしたぐらいです All I've done regarding this matter is exchange a few emails with him.
同人界隈には、定期的に原作の権利を侵害をするような事件がたまにあります。 なのであまり珍しくはないとも感じます。 Cases involving infringements of rights of the original works do happen regularly in the doujin world, so I don't feel that this is a particularly special case.
ただ今回は海外の、いち同人ファンの暴走と見るべきか、東方の同人の権利について無知なファンが引き起こした事件なのか、権利意識の低さによる海賊行為なのか、判断がまだつかないところです。 But I'm still unsure how I should view this case: as a case of a doujin fan running amok, as an incident caused by a fan who doesn't understand the rights given to Touhou doujin, or as an act of piracy resulting from a lack of respect for intellectual property.
Me こういう件も前にあったんですか?日本にでも? Were there cases like this before, even in Japan?
Yonjin いくらでもあります。 Oh sure, plenty.
東方ガイドラインにはアニメ制作を禁じているにも関わらず、勝手に公式を名乗ってアニメを販売しようとして、最終的に中止になったり Someone once tried to make and sell an anime as an official work of Touhou, even though the Touhou guideline forbids the production of anime. This was canceled in the end.
東方Projectの称号を同人ショップが乗っ取ろうとしたり [Yonjin presumably meant 商号 here.] One doujin shop tried to claim the Touhou Project trademark.
他にも勝手に"公式"を名乗ろうとする人達は居て、その都度ZUNやファンが対応しました。 There have been others who claimed to be official without any permission, and each time, ZUN or the fans responded accordingly.
今回の件も、ある種それに似た行為として捉える事ができます。 Touhou Smash can also be seen as a similar case.
そもそも、同人とは本来、著作権的に非合法と合法の中間に位置する行為です。 First of all, doujin is something that stands somewhere in between legality and illegality in terms of copyright.
東方Projectの繁栄は、その曖昧な同人活動に対して、東方ガイドラインという明確な指標を示すことで、同人作品を合法かつ公正に認める事が画期的でした。 [The relation among the phrases here is a bit unclear. What's I've given is my best guess.] The Touhou Project was revolutionary in that it recognized doujin works both legally and justly by providing a clear guideline, the Touhou guideline, for this greyzone that is doujin. This is what allowed the Touhou Project to thrive.
今回の事件は東方ガイドラインを破る行為で、これは東方同人コミュニティとして拒絶されるべき行為です。 The case of Touhou Smash violates the Touhou guideline. This is an action that deserves to be rejected by the Touhou doujin community.
また、クラウドファンディングを利用して資本を集めることは、そもそも『同人活動ではない』とみなされます。 それは商業活動であり、つまり著作権侵害の海賊行為とみなされます。 Crowdfunding is considered to be outside the scope of doujin activities. It's a commercial activity, hence infringement of copyright, a piracy.
Me ええ、それはよく聞く話です。だから同人に関わる”犯罪”などどうやるべきもよくわからない。 でもそれは海外だけの話と思ったな。まさか日本にもそんなにあるとはなあ Yes, I hear that often. But I thought that was only overseas. I had no idea it also happened in Japan.
Yonjin ガイドラインを守る限り、同人活動は合法です。 しかし日本にも利益のためにガイドラインを蔑ろにする人は出てきます。 Doujin activities are legal as long as they follow the guideline. But even in Japan, there are those who ignore it to make profit.
また、クラウドファンディングを利用して資本を集めることは、そもそも『同人活動ではない』とみなされます。 それは商業活動であり、つまり著作権侵害の海賊行為とみなされます。 [Same line as before]
Me では,クラウドファンディング以外でもその権利のことも問題ですか? 他にまだまだいけない事あるんですか? [Not quite sure what monhan means by その権利] Then are there other issues besides crowdfunding? Are there other things that are problematic here?
Yonjin 東方ガイドライン違反 ・同人文化や東方Projectを知らない人も利用する場(Indiegogo)にZUNの許可なく露出させた。 これはクラウドファンディングでないサービスでも批難されます。 ・Indiegogoのページ、ZUNのクレジットが明記されていない。 彼は「以前は表示をされていた」「宣伝動画の途中に触れている」とツィートしていましたが、誰の目に見てすぐにわかるようでなければガイドライン違反です。 ・また現時点においては同人作品のダウンロード販売は認められていません。 これについては、今の状況に合わせてガイドラインを更新してもいいと思いますが、だからといってガイドラインを破る行為は同人活動から逸脱します。 Violations of the Touhou guideline: * They exposed the Touhou Project without ZUN's permission in a platform (Indiegogo) that is also used by people who are unfamiliar with the doujin culture or the Touhou Project. This is frowned upon even for services other than crowdfunding. * The Indiegogo page does not clearly credit ZUN. Saijee tweeted earlier that it used to be shown and that he mentioned it in the trailer, but if it's not made obvious to anyone who visits, it's a violation of the guideline. * Also, download sales of doujin works is currently not permitted. It may be that the guideline could use an update given the situation today, but it remains true that any action violating the guideline takes one outside the scope of doujin.
海外に同人ショップを構えたり利用するのが難しかったり、同人イベントを開催したり参加したりするのが難しい現状は想像できます。 しかしガイドラインについて相談する前に違反してしまえば対話は不可能です。 I can understand that it's difficult overseas to set up or use a doujin shop, or to hold or participate in doujin events. But if you violate the guideline without even consulting first, there's no possibility for a discussion.
もっともダウンロード販売は実際にやってる人もいるので、曖昧かつグレーではあります。しかしガイドライン違反で褒められることではありません Of course, there ARE people who offer download sales, so that's a greyzone. But no one will praise you for violating the guideline.
なので問題点を整理すると ・クラウドファンディングで出資を集めた。(同人活動は非営利が前提) ・同人や東方を知らない人達の集まる場に同人作品を出した。(ガイドライン違反) ・現時点で認められないダウンロード販売を公言した。(ガイドライン違反) この3つでしょうか To summarize the problems: * They used crowdfunding. (Non-commercial is a given in doujin activities) * They put out a doujin work where there are people who aren't familiar with doujin or Touhou. (guideline violation) * Announced download sales, which is not currently allowed. (guideline violation) I would say these three.
Me うむ,結構多いな。説明してありがとうYonjinさん。 返事が遅くと少なくってごめん。今もまだこの件について私たちの中で話しています。 That's more than I thought. Thank you for explaining, Yonjin. Sorry my replies are late and short. We're still discussing this case among ourselves.
Yonjin 悲しいことに、これらは同人活動や東方ガイドラインに対する無理解や不勉強が根本的な原因に思われます。 気づいて貰うと彼と会話しましたが、残念ながら失敗したようです。 Unfortunately, the root of the problem seems to be their lack of understanding about doujin activities and the Touhou guideline. I talked to him hoping that he will realize this, but it seems I haven't succeeded.
おっと
取り急ぎ、多いですが今回の事件に対する自分の意見です I know that was quite a lot, but that's my opinion on this matter.
ついでに話すと、今回の事件に対するひとつの解決策としては 1. Indiegogoを中止する 2. 東方ProjectのFANしかいないクローズな場で説明する 3. クローズな場でdonationwareとして無料で公開し募金を募る。 です And I may as well mention: One solution would be to 1. cancel Indiegogo, 2. explain [something (unspecified)] in a non-public setting where there are only fans of the Touhou Project, 3. and offer it for free as a donation ware in a non-public setting.
Me そういえば,Yonjinさん自身は東方の同人世界の中で,何者ですか? 東方界隈が主な生息域っと書いたけど,正直まだわからない。失礼ならばごめんなさい By the way, what is your position in the world of Touhou doujin? You wrote that you're mostly active in Touhou, but I honestly can't really tell. Sorry if this is a rude question.
Yonjin 自分はただの一人の東方ファンですよ。ZUNや黄昏の作品を買い、東方同人作品を買い、たまに同人作品のイベント用ページやサービスを作ったりします。かれこれ10年以上経ちますね I'm just a Touhou fan. I buy ZUN and Tasogare's works and Touhou doujin works, and sometimes make websites for doujin event and services. I've been doing that for 10+ years now.
Me ZUNさんと係ることがあるんですか? Do you ever interact with ZUN?
Yonjin ただのファンなのでイベントで顔を見るくらいで、係るという程はないですね I'm just a fan, so I just see him at events. I don't really interact with him.
また基本的にZUNは個別にファンと関わることは極めて少ないです。 彼の監修する本や作品の出版社や、同人活動ではなく個人的な繋がりを尊重する人とも聞きます。 It's extremely rare for ZUN to interact with fans individually. I also hear that he's someone who values personal relations, such as with the publisher of the books and other works he oversees, more than doujin activities.
なのでいくらZUNに個人としてメールで連絡しようとしても、恐らく回答はないと思います。 企業として責任を明示して窓口に問い合わせるなら別でしょうけど So no matter how much you try to contact him via email as an individual, I don't think there will be a reply. Of course, I imagine it's a different matter if you approach the appropriate contact as an actual business.
Me 勿論この事は彼らにきっちり伝えてやる。ZUNさんにまでこれ以上の迷惑かけたくないな。 I'll tell all of this very clearly to those guys. I don't want to trouble ZUN any further.
Yonjin 海外にも貴方のように同人文化について熱心に理解しようと努力する人が居るのは、東方Projectが海や国境を越えたことを感じてとても嬉しいです。 I'm very glad that there are people like you overseas who make a genuine effort to understand the doujin culture. It shows how the Touhou Project has spread across national borders.
彼らの行いは不幸な出来事ですが、こうして貴方と対話が出来たのは幸運です。 What they did was unfortunate, but I'm glad I was able to talk to you like this.
また彼らの行いが、東方Projectや同人の文化が正しく理解されるキッカケになることを願います。 And I hope that what they did will lead to a better understanding of the Touhou Project and the doujin culture.
長々と失礼しました Sorry to have rambled on.
おそらく、悪意がなかったのは確かで、彼も東方ファンの一人なのだと思います。しかし無理解と不勉強が今回の事件を起こしたのだと思います。 失敗は仕方ないです、誰でもします。 I do believe that he meant no harm, and that he too is a fan of Touhou. I think what caused this case is his lack of effort to understand. But mistakes do happen. Everyone makes mistakes.
大事なのは同人活動や東方ガイドライン対する姿勢です。 もし彼らがこのまま姿勢を変えずに、東方ガイドラインを蔑ろにするのであれば、彼らは東方ファンから海賊行為をする犯罪者になります。 彼らが考えや姿勢を改めることを願います。 What matters is the attitude towards doujin activities and the Touhou guideline. If they don't change their attitude and continue to ignore the Touhou guideline, then they're criminals who pirate off of Touhou fans. I hope that they will change their attitude and way of thinking.
- So it's still possible for Saijee to be able to do this project as long as he follows those solution procedures? If it is so, I want him to see this message ASAP.
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the maus
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Post by the maus on Jan 18, 2015 15:50:41 GMT
TSSB controversy explained:
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